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AxeMan
Member since Aug-24-04
3 posts
Aug-24-04, 03:43 PM (GMT)
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"What if...?"
 
   Ah, I LOVE a good "What if...?" discussion...!

"What if..." the Sox HADN'T sloughed the 1919 world's series? Where might they stand in the pantheon of all-time great baseball teams?


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cckid
Member since Jan-3-08
1 posts
Jan-03-08, 01:37 PM (GMT)
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4. "RE: What if...?"
In response to message #0
 
   I have been reading with great interest the stories of the '19 World Series and in particular the fates of Buck Weaver and Joe Jackson. Another question that I'd like to throw out is... Knowing what he did then, what punishment should Judge Landis have handed down for the eight? I think minimum each person should have gotten a separate trial, so there would be an opportunity to divvy out different punishments depending upon how each participated. This story is a great morality tale, and I can't help but wonder how the league would be different if it had never happened. Anyway, hope that prompts more discussion. Thanks for the site!


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GKStaffadmin
Member since Jul-29-04
4 posts
Aug-25-04, 10:12 AM (GMT)
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1. "RE: What if...?"
In response to message #0
 
User Avatar Well.....through our research into the subject.......the Reds would probably have beaten the Sox even if the all the Sox were playing on the up and up......... We don't think there was anything extra special about the White Sox of 1919......it's more that since some of the members threw the series......all of the sudden they became the greatest team to never win the Series......just isn't so in our book. The Reds had a better pitching staff....and quite frankly were better man for man by position....except maybe in left field...and maybe second base.....but of course....Eddie Collins had a terrible Series......so even that is hard to say. The White Sox in our opinion were OK....but that's about it.....nothing to write home to mom about!!!

Ginger Kid Staff
The Ginger Kid Web Site
http://www.gingerkid.com


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AxeMan
Member since Aug-24-04
3 posts
Aug-25-04, 11:22 AM (GMT)
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2. "RE: What if...?"
In response to message #1
 
   Interesting...and a response I certainly didn't expect from a staff with loyalties tied to the Sox! Emotion Icons I appreciate the candid response.

Not sure I agree entirely with your assessment, though. Jackson was certainly Pat Duncan's superior and Eddie Collins (bad series or not) is the obvious choice over Morrie Rath. I'd also rate Ray Schalk as a clear advantage over the combination of Ivy Wingo/Bill Raridan. The only position where Cincinnati was clearly superior was centerfield, where future Hall of Famer Edd Roush roamed. Even then, Hap Felsch was no slouch in the field or at the plate. Many reports of the day opined that Felsch was the second-best fielding CF of his day, behind only Tris Speaker. For his career, Felsch's fielding percentage compares favorably with that of Roush's.

Jake Daubert is probably the choice over Chick Gandil at 1st, but not by a large margin. (Again) Gandil was no slouch at that position and that Daubert was having one of the worst years of his solid career in 1919 (third-worst batting average, second-most errors). The other non-pitching positions I'd rate as fairly even -- Risberg/Kopf at short, Weaver/Groh at third, and the Leibold/S.Collins combo in RF against Greasy Neale.

The pitching issue is the key. In terms of numbers there is no doubt Cincy held the edge -- Ruether, Eller, Sallee, Fisher, Ring, Luque. But none of those pitchers were as dominant as Cicotte and Williams were during the year. (Okay, they didn't HAVE to be since the Sox were short-staffed much of the year, but you see where I'm going with this. Emotion Icons And with ##### Kerr emerging as a bona fide starter, Chicago would have two superior pitchers and one very solid one in a short (9-game) series.

For intangibles, let's not forget that this was Cincinnati's first post-season appearance in 50 years, while the Sox could draw on the experience of having played in (and won) the world's series just two years earlier. Also, in that series they had made short work of pitcher Slim Sallee, then with the Giants.

Your thoughts...? And also, I was actually getting at what Chicago might have been able to accomplish AFTER the 1919 series (but I'm certainly more than happy to rehash the series itself). Thanks for the good convo...


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GKStaffadmin
Member since Jul-29-04
4 posts
Sep-22-04, 10:11 AM (GMT)
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3. "RE: What if...?"
In response to message #2
 
User Avatar Well.....loyalty has nothing to do with our response......when you defend players such as Weaver and Jackson like we do....at some point you have to look at facts. Fact is.....the Reds probably would have beaten the Sox without any help. If you look at what Reds players said soon after the series was played....and some even maintained those thoughts until the day they died. Most said they believed after the first game...the Sox were playing on the up and up. A lot commented that Cicotte was bringing his best stuff when they faced him...even the umpires said they saw nothing fishy with the games. Maybe the Sox of '19 should have gone down as the best actors that ever took a stage.....we highly doubt that....we think it somewhere inbetween. Some of the Sox were in the tank for the entire thing and some never were...even though the ones that were in it whole hog thought that some of their teammates that were supposed to be in on the deal....were....when in realty...they weren't. The fact is...Cicotte and others were in on it....but none of them wanted to do the dirty work that it took to lose (Obviously Cicotte and Williams did their part pretty well)......but some of the others....actually did well when they should have just struck out
or tapped a weak one to third. The details of the whole affair....who knew what....and who did what...will NEVER be known...at least not on this Earth....but it sure does make for
interesting conversation

Ginger Kid Staff
The Ginger Kid Web Site
http://www.gingerkid.com


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